Adam Bryant conducts interviews of senior-level executives that appear in his “Corner Office” column each week in the SundayBusiness section of The New York Times. Here are a few insights provided during an interview of This interview with Enrique Salem, president and C.E.O. of Symantec, the computer security company. He says Shakespeare’s observation that “our doubts are traitors” applies well to business, as does Tennyson’s view that “I am a part of all that I have met.”

To read the complete interview as well as Bryant’s interviews of other executives, please click here.

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Want to Lead? Ask Tennyson and Shakespeare

 

Bryant: What were some important leadership lessons for you?

 Salem: I played high school football — I was a linebacker — and then I played at Dartmouth. When you play football, you really understand it is a team effort. When you play organized sports, especially team sports, it’s not about individuals. I think organized sports are a way to learn a lot about things that will be helpful in business.

Bryant: Other lessons you learned playing sports?

Salem: I was captain of the varsity football team my senior year of high school. We called the plays the coach would signal in to us from the sideline. I used to be very much a student of the game. I would watch the game films myself and get ideas of what we should do, what we should think about.

One time the coach called a defensive play and I changed it, and after having some success with that I said, “Oh, this isn’t so hard.” But then another player runs on the field and replaces me, and I run to the bench and the coach says, “When you want to call what I’m calling, you can go back in the game.” So I sat on the bench for a play or two and then went over and said: “O.K., Coach. I got it. I’m sorry.” And he put me back in the game. I really learned this notion that whoever’s making the calls, you’ve got to listen to that person.

And he pulled me aside after the game and we talked about it, and he said: “I know you love the game. I know you study the game. But you’ve got to realize that when I make calls, I’m setting something up. I’m looking at something that’s happening, and you can’t be out there second-guessing me on this.” I still remember that story. In business, somebody has to make the call. I learned that pretty early on. 

Bryant: And do you find yourself ever having to explain to somebody the point that the coach made to you?

Salem: Absolutely. You run into situations where there’s a bigger picture sometimes that an individual who’s working on a project may not be able to see, and can’t understand all the implications of any decision you make.

Bryant: What other leadership lessons do you convey to your employees?

Salem: There’s a verse from William Shakespeare’s Measure for Measure, which is, “Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt.” I have this presentation that I give to our advanced leadership class, and the title is, “Lessons I’ve Learned Along the Way.” One of the slides has that quote, because if you think about that quote, it really is how I want our company to be. You’ve got to take some chances. You’ve got to take some risks, and sometimes things don’t work out, but you’ve got to go for it.

Bryant: What else is on that list of things you’ve learned?

Salem: The very first chart says, “Check your ego and your title at the door.” I learned that very early on. One of the things that my first manager said to me was: “Look, a lot of times you don’t lead by your position. You lead by how you influence other people’s thinking.” And so I absolutely believe that if it’s about you, you’re not going to do a great job. It can’t be about your success. It has to be about what you are trying to accomplish. So that’s No. 1. No. 2 came from Tennyson, his poem “Ulysses.” If you read the poem, there’s one little phrase that says, “I am a part of all that I have met.” I absolutely believe you learn from everybody you interact with.

Another one is from Colin Powell: “Positive attitude is a force multiplier.” I think that you’ve got to stay positive about things because when you go the other way, it’s de-motivating to everybody around you and you’re unlikely to be successful.

I’ll give you one more. The other day I did a presentation to some of our leaders, and one of the questions I asked them was, “If you were writing a book, what would it be titled?”

For me, and I end of lot of my e-mails with this, it is: “Expect great things.” It’s the notion that the bar needs to be high. I expect people to perform. I want to get great people around me, and I expect them to do great things. And, quite frankly, good people strive for that. My goal is to stretch people to potentially accomplish things they didn’t think were possible. But you can’t go so far that you break them.

Bryant: How would you say your leadership style has evolved?

Salem: I am more direct now. Before I would tiptoe around tough issues, and now I feel like I’m going to tell you what’s going on or what I think, and I don’t need to be as guarded or as cautious. So it makes it easier to get information out.

Bryant: And does that include difficult conversations with people about their performance?

Salem: Absolutely. It was harder for me to talk to somebody about, “Here’s where I need you to improve.” It didn’t make it easier to be worried about their reaction. Now I feel more comfortable with that, and I think it’s just a matter of experience.

If you’re going to be successful, you’ve got to be able to deliver the tough message. And I find that a lot of managers will not deliver those messages and then people are surprised. If you get asked to be a manager, you have to manage. And managing means sometimes you’ve got to deliver a tough message. But you’ve got to give the feedback in a way that has a constructive tone.

Bryant: Let’s shift to hiring. How do you do it and what questions do you ask? What are you looking for?

Salem: There’s a number of things I look for. I look for how they are going to fit into our organization, especially at the executive level. What kind of attitude do they bring?

I’m always trying to figure out how people think about things. I always ask, “What have you done that’s been very successful?” I want them to be ambitious. I want them to want my job. So I will ask: “What do you want to do? You’re coming in to this role. What’s next? Is this a one-, three-, five-year role? How do you think about it?” So I really want ambition. I want to feel like they’re going to be a positive force in the environment.

And I really look for smart people. And smart doesn’t mean that they went to a big-name college. It can be clear from what they’ve done or how they solved a problem, or how they thought about a problem. I’ll ask them, “What’s the hardest problem you’ve ever solved? Talk to me about that. And what’s the most exciting thing that you’ve done that you feel really good about and want to share with me and everybody else?  What was the hardest decision you had to make?”

The other thing I’m looking for is how honest are they with me. I’ll ask them: “Tell me about something that didn’t work out. What project didn’t succeed?” It’s interesting to hear what they’re willing to tell you. If somebody just says, “Everything’s great,” then they’re probably not the right person.

Bryant: Talk about the culture you want to create.

Salem: You’ve got to be aggressive. You’ve got to want to win, so I talk a lot about the importance of winning. Be willing to take chances. Beg for forgiveness; don’t ask for permission. I want people to take risks, make decisions, and I want them to be more aggressive. I sometimes say I want us to be a $6.5 billion start-up. So that’s how I think about the culture. 

Bryant: Talk more about this start-up culture you want.

Salem: I don’t want groupthink. I don’t want consensus for every decision. Big companies end up with that. And I want people who are willing to wear multiple hats. In big companies, people get specialized. This person does this, this person does that, and that’s all they do. That’s not what I want. Be multidisciplined. Understand the company beyond exactly what you do. The more you understand the breadth, the better you are. And in start-ups, you’re forced into that.

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Adam Bryant, deputy national editor of The New York Times, oversees coverage of education issues, military affairs, law, and works with reporters in many of the Times‘ domestic bureaus. He also conducts interviews with CEOs and other leaders for Corner Office, a weekly feature in the SundayBusiness section and on nytimes.com that he started in March 2009. In his new book, The Corner Office: Indispensable and Unexpected Lessons from CEOs on How to Lead and Succeed, (Times Books), he analyzes the broader lessons that emerge from his interviews with more than 70 leaders. To read an excerpt, please click here. To contact him, please click here.